this'll is Mississippi matters in partnership with the United Way of the capital area. Hello and welcome to Mississippi. Matters everyone. I'm Erin Pickens. This week we're talking about the historic vote that changed Mississippi's controversial flag, removing the Confederate stars and bars that many found racist. Joining us this week. Our former governor, Ronnie Musgrove, recent Jackson State University graduate Jordan Jefferson, who is now heading to Harvard. And Dr DeAndre Aurea, professor of political science at Jackson State University. Thank you all for joining us before we get into our discussion. Let's remind everyone how we got to this point. On Saturday, June 27th the Mississippi House and Senate voted to suspend the rules to allow the flag removal bill to be submitted. The next day. On June 28th both sides voted on the bill to remove the flag. It passed the House 91 to 23 in the Senate, 37 to 14. That led to the governor signing the bill into law on Tuesday, June 30th. Now let's get reaction from our guest. Governor must grow. We want to start with you. The much talked about flag vote happened in 2001 during your term as governor, when voters chose to keep that flag that you ever think that you see the day that it would come down, I really did. If I thought I would live a normal life time, but I do, it was gonna take a while back then, it was the legislative leadership who was opposed to the flag are changing the flag, and the governor being Mia's serving at the time, felt like we needed to change it. I felt like it had so many bad things, too. It was divisive. It sent the wrong message. It told people in America that we couldn't treat people equal, fair correctly, and I thought it needed changed. But I am very glad that flag of 126 years has now finally come down and we can move forward. And I commend the legislative leadership, the lieutenant governor, the speaker of the House. And I'm glad that the governor came around. All right, we'll have more from you coming up in just a moment. But doctor or E, we go to you next. I'm sure you've had many lectures in your classes on the state flag. What did you think when you saw the legislators were voting tohave, it retired. Well, first of all, I was relieved. You know, I'd like to applaud Governor Most Grove in 2001 when he fought toe change the flag. I do believe that that was the impetus behind this defeat. I was working at the University of Mississippi at the time, and I was frustrated. I was devastated. After having so much hope for the state, I decided to leave the state in 2001 is result of that flag boat and moved toe of all places, Nebraska. And so, you know, I was excited. I also applaud Jordan Jefferson, who was a part of the momentous occasion. Hey, was down in the galley in, but not so when he called me, he called to celebrate, and I reminded him of the you know what? The struggle that it continues. And he reminded me that I should say with a moment, given the years that I've agonized over this defeat in 2001 and we're gonna talk to you more about that. Your time? University of Mississippi. And you're leaving the state. We'll talk more about that in just a moment. But speaking of Jordan Jefferson Okay, Jordan, you're the former student government Association president at J Issue, and you've been very vocal about the flag as a young man. How did she feel to sit in that gallery and watch that vote happened? It's such a surreal moment, because now I know that Mississippi will forever be positively changed for the better and good. I'm so excited because so many people will want to stay now and economic value be brought to the state. And I'm just really super excited about what's gonna be furthermore in this state and also this country as well. So I'm very excited as a student and can't wait to come back to Mississippi and help move for movements said before. And that's about to ask you, can we know you're going off the Harvard here for school? So do you plan to come back and help better things from Mississippi? Oh, yes. After I get this fancy degree, I'm gonna come back and help change Mississippi and be the change I want to see. That's awesome. I'm sure Mississippi will welcome you in that fancy degree right on back to help Continue with the change. All right, thanks, Jordan. Not to worry back to you. We want to go and talk about this historical relevance of this vote and this new law. How will this time in Mississippi history be documented? Well, you know, Mississippi has stained and relate to racial inequalities on I think that, you know, this symbolizes the move. You know, in terms of a divorce from that state flag, be engagement. You know, rain represents unity, and then the marriage a za relates to reconciliation on do you know, efforts to move forward. And so, you know, this is a great day, and we want to make sure that this is a great marriage in a long lasting marriage. Aziz, we move forward, Black, white, so on and so forth. But this is a great day, and I'll always treasure this this moment. And you mentioned a little bit earlier that you left the state in 2001. After that vote, what was it that prompted you to return to Mississippi? Well, you know, actually, when the governor Business University of Mississippi for a meeting during that time, I told a woman that you know this flag boats if the referendum ends in defeat. I was leaving the state and she said, Well, you know, I left the state once and you know you will be back. You're just you just be running away. And so I knew that, You know, I had a lot, a lot toe off of the state. And, you know, the only way that we could see changes if I was a part of that change. And, you know, this is something that forced me to move back. I had no choice. And I'm sure you're glad to be back here during this moment in time as well. Almost definitely. You know, my son is here. You know, I was gone doing a huge part of his growth and development on Do you know, I was lucky enough to come back and find my Brad, my bride. And, you know, just glad to be here. Part of, you know, seen change and being a part of of that change. Excellent. Thanks. Almost, doctor, or okay, Governor must grow back to you. We want to get your thoughts as well. We know that your part in history as far as the flag is concerned is already documented. But how do you think Mississippi will be remembered now when it comes to the flag in this historic vote? Well, clearly, the changing of the flag is a victory and a step forward. However, it's not a total victory. You hope that the changing of the flag will then result in some really substantive changes toe what we need to do. We can't just say we're open and equal to everyone unless we provide opportunity and good jobs for everyone. Make sure we fund education for everyone, provide health care. If we're going change systemic racism in our society, then we've got to provide opportunities for everyone. Black lives do matter in the sense of all the opportunities that we as a state should give to people. So I'm hoping that will say, better job opportunities favorite one policies that will make sure education is funded. Also, to make sure that health care is available to everyone, and that overall people are treated with fairness and respect that they deserve. And you mentioned to us in an earlier interview that, you know, we don't know how many millions of dollars Mississippi lost during the time that the flag must flying. And before this vote happened, I knew 19 years ago that we were losing businesses because off the flag and there were several other states that had vestiges of the Confederacy and their flag as well, they all removed theirs. Leave in Mississippi is the only one we will never know. How many business opportunities jobs are business locations We lost in these 19 years because of that flag. But now we can say it's behind us. It's gone and we open and welcome people and businesses to Mississippi. Thank you so much, Governor. Okay, Jordan, you know, 2020 was ah, year So far, six months into it has been a very interesting year. Your whole graduation was thrown sideways because of Corona virus and covert 19. So now that we're into 2020 and this vote has happened and you were there to be a part of that and to witness it, what are your thoughts on this? And how will be portrayed in history being the new history books when the next edition comes? And I'm excited to say, Tell my kids and grandkids I was there, so that's gonna be very positive, but, um, yes, 2020 gave us a rough start, but I'm glad where 2020 has taken this. Now, uh, from the flag being taken down, this is the issue that we've been seeing visually for a long time. And, uh, now we need to work on the issues that we don't really usually see. So that's needs to be the feature of 2020 and the rest of these years coming. And as a young man, what would you like to see your peers due to make those changes happen? Uh, keep the moment. Um, don't get excited off. Symbolic change, you know, really fight for what you really want to see and what needs to happen there. So many issues that we have as a state, especially as a country. Don't get excited by a little momento. Keep it. Keep it going. Keep the moment, um, alive. So I want us as young people to state the issues and hold our public officials accountable. And that is a great segue. Way to get ready for our next segment. So stay with us, everyone. When we return, we'll be talking about where we go from here now that history has been made. Okay, And welcome back to Mississippi matters. This week, we're discussing the history making vote that retires the state flag and paves the way for the designing of a new one this week. Our guest, our former governor, Ronnie Musgrove, recent J issue graduate Jordan Jefferson and Dr DeAndre or E. J. Issue political science professor. During this segment, we want to talk about what happens next. Many people are riding a high of emotions right now because they never thought they'd see the day the flag in Mississippi would come down. But this is not a magical moment, because it doesn't erase the fact that there is still work to be done. Governor Musgrove, let's start with you. This major hurdle has been cleared, but what else needs to be done? Erin, to things that I've heard this morning are exciting. One that Jordan wants to come back to Mississippi once he graduates from Harvard. I can't help but believe that that's a positive sign. Mississippi has lost population for the last three or four years, mainly young people, and I believe that's a positive sign, and I can't help but believe that some of it has to do with the old flag that we had as far as the losing of people. Secondly, the doctor, Rory came back and he felt like he had something to contribute to Mississippi. You could not watch that video, George Fluid and feel like everything was OK. You knew something was wrong with the criminal justice system. So what we must see is we must see more than symbols changed. We must see actual policies change, everyone having and being treated properly and correctly and fairly when we start changing our policies like the criminal justice system, like making sure that we fund education for everyone and that we don't defund education as we have done over the last decade, then we'll start seeing some positive gains. And I believe those are the things that need to be done over the next years to give the message and signal to the rest of the country and even the world that Mississippi is a place that you could live in, grow up and raise a family and doctor, or you heard the governor mentioned that all of this seems have started with George floored here from in a few weeks ago. Did you ever think that what happened with George Floyd in Minneapolis would make its way here to Mississippi and lead to change here? Well, you know, after saying, makes it brown and the other young white and black protesters doing the aftermath, George Floyd's dead. I was encouraged. Um, I hadn't seen that type of, you know, murder of blacks and whites in a public space, as relates to progress, the state in my lifetime. And so that gave me hope. But But they're not. I would be remiss if I didn't mention, you know, our ancestors who really made this possible and who fought for the removal of structural barriers such as, you know, Dr Aaron Surly Dr Ali Shirley Damaged Lewis or E. James MEREDITH. You know, Mega Evers Family Hebert list goes on, and to see Black legislate towards locked out of the ceremony on yesterday was very troubling. Blacks have been locked out of the political process for so many years and then moving forward, you need to see the structural barriers such as inequality of funding for historically black universities as well as public schools. You know, efforts to take the airport from Jackson, which would have great economic implications. And so, in order for this to be substantive and not simply symbolic those who cross the aisle to vote on this particular issue, I'll be watching to see whether or not they cross the aisle to, you know, dress progressive change. And we do know that it was a bipartisan effort and being a political science professor. What do you think about that? The fact that it took Democrats and Republicans get coming across the line to come together to make this law to vote on this and make this happen. Well, I guess you know the future will tell whether or not these letters they talked with genuine about their efforts. We know that Ah, a lot of these efforts were a function of pressures from outside. You had corporations get the SEC. You have athletes who applied the pressure for the Legislature Toe Act. And so now we'll see whether or not, you know, legislate towards our genuine in their efforts to see um, Mississippi progress in Jordan. How about you? We know that you and other millennials have truly stepped up during this reignited movement And, of course, not only are you a scholar, you're also an athlete. You play football at Jackson State as well. So saying someone like Island Hill, step out and make a strong statement that he did about not playing in Mississippi anymore. What do you think about young people and their role and what it meant to this new movement? Well, I will first like the salute Colin Hill on the courage to do something like that. But my pain is long overdue for athletes to do this. And the reason why I say that is because we create so much revenue for these universities and help the economy. For somebody. Cities are voice really matters, and that's what Colin Hill really showed. It's long overdue for us to show how much are voice matters and what we can do for the community in the world. And I'm glad Colin Hill set the tone for that, and I can't wait for more athletes or set set their voice out and set. The tone is a little, and I know you're going off to college here in a few weeks. But what about those who are staying here? Those who are in your class who are staying here and going to school here either locally or somewhere else in Mississippi. What would you like to see them do to continue this fight? Honestly, uh, prioritize your time. Really? Prioritize your time. Ah, really? Set the goal for what you really want to do for this state and also this country as well. We have an agenda, and we have to complete. That is social justice for this state in the country. We need to unite and focus on the issues that we have ahead of us. That that's what we need to do. All right. Sounds good. Thank you so much of Jordan and keep it right here. Everyone, much more. Mississippi matters coming up in just a moment. Welcome back to Mississippi matters. As we wrap up our conversation about the historic black vote, we want to get some final thoughts from our guest. Dr. Rory, we like to start with you. You mentioned that you were at the University of Mississippi and that you left Mrs it before time. After that historic vote back in 2001 when voters decided to keep the flag, give us some thoughts about actually what it was like being in University of Mississippi and your time leaving in your time coming back. Well, in 2001 I can remember it like yesterday, April 17th 2001 when we had the flag referendum. Um, again, I was extremely hurt by it. I just moved back to Mississippi after being in graduate school forever. And so I remember one day jogging around the campus and I noticed a Confederate graveyard in the back of the campus. And while I was in graduate school, I actually used to live right across from that Gravier and I've never seen it. I jogged on a little bit further. And then you, of course, see the Confederate monument, and then I just a little bit further, and I saw monument or, you know, assemble that reference. Nathan Bedford Forrest, founder of the clan. It's all that hit me at once, and I just began to crumble and decided that it was time for me. Leave what I love. For 20 years now, I've been doing research on you know, the Confederate battle flag and its impact on blacks. Recently, I've been working on the impact of the flag on what we call by carriers trauma and complex trauma. And the research yielded that. You know, when we could make blacks to, like E K G machines and, you know, skin conductors to see almost a sweat that blacks indeed responded in a negative way when they saw the flag. And so, you know, I'm glad to see that this research now we'll no longer be relevant on, and that's a good thing. And for your students here that you'll be teaching here in the fall and and in the future, what are some of the things that you will be telling them about this time? Their time in 2001? I'm sure you already tell them about. But what about now? This time here in 2020? What will you want your students to take away from this? Well, first of all, let's give me never forget from whence you come and remember that you know, we had ancestors who fought the entire life and didn't get a chance to see this come to fruition on. And so they have an obligation to move forward and, you know, engage themselves and social justice or you know, other activism that will lead to a better life for future generations. And if he had a message for Jordan and other students from the class of 2020 who are about to head off right now, what would you tell them? I'm come back and be that change that you want to see again. I left the state and always knew that I would come back, no matter how devastated I waas. It's an experience that I needed, I guess Toe have to give me the moment, um, to, you know, conduct as much work to see the change that I wanted to see, and so I would encourage them to, you know, stay visible it and recognize the structural barriers even though they have an opportunity to, you know, go off and get a better education there. So many in this state who do not have that opportunity. And Jordan, you've heard what Dr Ory said As you get ready to head off to Harvard, I'm sure you're prepared for many people asking you about being from Mississippi and what it's like living in Mississippi. And they're probably gonna talk about this flag once you get there as well? Yes. I'm excited that that's not the burden of people wanting to come here. And also, when we have conversation people, I asked me why do you want to stay? Or why would you want to come back? I'm glad that conversations over and we could talk about different issues and different problems and not specifically the issue that represents us as a whole. And some final thoughts for your fellow graduates this year. What would you like again for them to see? I would like to I would like them to see the moment, um that we have done as a country and specifically estate. Uh, we did this in a short timeframe the last three months. Imagine if we can do that for the next year, to how further along we will be as a state and country. So I would like to offer, keep the momentum alive, keep positivity and keep fighting, and governor must grow. What about you? Of course again. This all started with you back in 2001. And now here we are in 2020 with this historic vote. What are some of your final thoughts? One of the things, doctor or just beach, and I think is fear relevant to the day. If you are white like I am, and we have enjoyed the benefit of privilege all of our lives in some shape, form or fashion, we need to learn to listen more. We need to listen to what it means that people are saying where people are hurt, where people are sensitive about not being included in things. If you are a black legislator, if you're a person of color and you've worked hard for decades on changing the flag, it's important to be involved in the celebration of that. That's just a part of life that's imported. All of those areas need to be sensitive to the R leadership in Mississippi. The people who hold office, the people who are respected people in the community make sure all voices are heard and that black voices, voices of color, voices of everyone are included in steps as we move forward as a state, and we do know that it will take everyone to continue to move things forward. Thank you so much for being with us today. Governor Ronnie Musgrove, Doctor DeAndre Rory and Jordan Jefferson a region's ear. She glad grad heading to Harvard University. And thanks so much for watching Mississippi matters this week. Join us again next Sunday at 11 35 PM form or insightful conversation about the biggest. this'll is Mississippi matters in partnership with the United Way of the capital area. Hello and welcome to Mississippi. Matters everyone. I'm Erin Pickens. This week we're talking about the historic vote that changed Mississippi's controversial flag, removing the Confederate stars and bars that many found racist. Joining us this week. Our former governor, Ronnie Musgrove, recent Jackson State University graduate Jordan Jefferson, who is now heading to Harvard. And Dr DeAndre Aurea, professor of political science at Jackson State University. Thank you all for joining us before we get into our discussion. Let's remind everyone how we got to this point. On Saturday, June 27th the Mississippi House and Senate voted to suspend the rules to allow the flag removal bill to be submitted. The next day. On June 28th both sides voted on the bill to remove the flag. It passed the House 91 to 23 in the Senate, 37 to 14. That led to the governor signing the bill into law on Tuesday, June 30th. Now let's get reaction from our guest. Governor must grow. We want to start with you. The much talked about flag vote happened in 2001 during your term as governor, when voters chose to keep that flag that you ever think that you see the day that it would come down, I really did. If I thought I would live a normal life time, but I do, it was gonna take a while back then, it was the legislative leadership who was opposed to the flag are changing the flag, and the governor being Mia's serving at the time, felt like we needed to change it. I felt like it had so many bad things, too. It was divisive. It sent the wrong message. It told people in America that we couldn't treat people equal, fair correctly, and I thought it needed changed. But I am very glad that flag of 126 years has now finally come down and we can move forward. And I commend the legislative leadership, the lieutenant governor, the speaker of the House. And I'm glad that the governor came around. All right, we'll have more from you coming up in just a moment. But doctor or E, we go to you next. I'm sure you've had many lectures in your classes on the state flag. What did you think when you saw the legislators were voting tohave, it retired. Well, first of all, I was relieved. You know, I'd like to applaud Governor Most Grove in 2001 when he fought toe change the flag. I do believe that that was the impetus behind this defeat. I was working at the University of Mississippi at the time, and I was frustrated. I was devastated. After having so much hope for the state, I decided to leave the state in 2001 is result of that flag boat and moved toe of all places, Nebraska. And so, you know, I was excited. I also applaud Jordan Jefferson, who was a part of the momentous occasion. Hey, was down in the galley in, but not so when he called me, he called to celebrate, and I reminded him of the you know what? The struggle that it continues. And he reminded me that I should say with a moment, given the years that I've agonized over this defeat in 2001 and we're gonna talk to you more about that. Your time? University of Mississippi. And you're leaving the state. We'll talk more about that in just a moment. But speaking of Jordan Jefferson Okay, Jordan, you're the former student government Association president at J Issue, and you've been very vocal about the flag as a young man. How did she feel to sit in that gallery and watch that vote happened? It's such a surreal moment, because now I know that Mississippi will forever be positively changed for the better and good. I'm so excited because so many people will want to stay now and economic value be brought to the state. And I'm just really super excited about what's gonna be furthermore in this state and also this country as well. So I'm very excited as a student and can't wait to come back to Mississippi and help move for movements said before. And that's about to ask you, can we know you're going off the Harvard here for school? So do you plan to come back and help better things from Mississippi? Oh, yes. After I get this fancy degree, I'm gonna come back and help change Mississippi and be the change I want to see. That's awesome. I'm sure Mississippi will welcome you in that fancy degree right on back to help Continue with the change. All right, thanks, Jordan. Not to worry back to you. We want to go and talk about this historical relevance of this vote and this new law. How will this time in Mississippi history be documented? Well, you know, Mississippi has stained and relate to racial inequalities on I think that, you know, this symbolizes the move. You know, in terms of a divorce from that state flag, be engagement. You know, rain represents unity, and then the marriage a za relates to reconciliation on do you know, efforts to move forward. And so, you know, this is a great day, and we want to make sure that this is a great marriage in a long lasting marriage. Aziz, we move forward, Black, white, so on and so forth. But this is a great day, and I'll always treasure this this moment. And you mentioned a little bit earlier that you left the state in 2001. After that vote, what was it that prompted you to return to Mississippi? Well, you know, actually, when the governor Business University of Mississippi for a meeting during that time, I told a woman that you know this flag boats if the referendum ends in defeat. I was leaving the state and she said, Well, you know, I left the state once and you know you will be back. You're just you just be running away. And so I knew that, You know, I had a lot, a lot toe off of the state. And, you know, the only way that we could see changes if I was a part of that change. And, you know, this is something that forced me to move back. I had no choice. And I'm sure you're glad to be back here during this moment in time as well. Almost definitely. You know, my son is here. You know, I was gone doing a huge part of his growth and development on Do you know, I was lucky enough to come back and find my Brad, my bride. And, you know, just glad to be here. Part of, you know, seen change and being a part of of that change. Excellent. Thanks. Almost, doctor, or okay, Governor must grow back to you. We want to get your thoughts as well. We know that your part in history as far as the flag is concerned is already documented. But how do you think Mississippi will be remembered now when it comes to the flag in this historic vote? Well, clearly, the changing of the flag is a victory and a step forward. However, it's not a total victory. You hope that the changing of the flag will then result in some really substantive changes toe what we need to do. We can't just say we're open and equal to everyone unless we provide opportunity and good jobs for everyone. Make sure we fund education for everyone, provide health care. If we're going change systemic racism in our society, then we've got to provide opportunities for everyone. Black lives do matter in the sense of all the opportunities that we as a state should give to people. So I'm hoping that will say, better job opportunities favorite one policies that will make sure education is funded. Also, to make sure that health care is available to everyone, and that overall people are treated with fairness and respect that they deserve. And you mentioned to us in an earlier interview that, you know, we don't know how many millions of dollars Mississippi lost during the time that the flag must flying. And before this vote happened, I knew 19 years ago that we were losing businesses because off the flag and there were several other states that had vestiges of the Confederacy and their flag as well, they all removed theirs. Leave in Mississippi is the only one we will never know. How many business opportunities jobs are business locations We lost in these 19 years because of that flag. But now we can say it's behind us. It's gone and we open and welcome people and businesses to Mississippi. Thank you so much, Governor. Okay, Jordan, you know, 2020 was ah, year So far, six months into it has been a very interesting year. Your whole graduation was thrown sideways because of Corona virus and covert 19. So now that we're into 2020 and this vote has happened and you were there to be a part of that and to witness it, what are your thoughts on this? And how will be portrayed in history being the new history books when the next edition comes? And I'm excited to say, Tell my kids and grandkids I was there, so that's gonna be very positive, but, um, yes, 2020 gave us a rough start, but I'm glad where 2020 has taken this. Now, uh, from the flag being taken down, this is the issue that we've been seeing visually for a long time. And, uh, now we need to work on the issues that we don't really usually see. So that's needs to be the feature of 2020 and the rest of these years coming. And as a young man, what would you like to see your peers due to make those changes happen? Uh, keep the moment. Um, don't get excited off. Symbolic change, you know, really fight for what you really want to see and what needs to happen there. So many issues that we have as a state, especially as a country. Don't get excited by a little momento. Keep it. Keep it going. Keep the moment, um, alive. So I want us as young people to state the issues and hold our public officials accountable. And that is a great segue. Way to get ready for our next segment. So stay with us, everyone. When we return, we'll be talking about where we go from here now that history has been made. Okay, And welcome back to Mississippi matters. This week, we're discussing the history making vote that retires the state flag and paves the way for the designing of a new one this week. Our guest, our former governor, Ronnie Musgrove, recent J issue graduate Jordan Jefferson and Dr DeAndre or E. J. Issue political science professor. During this segment, we want to talk about what happens next. Many people are riding a high of emotions right now because they never thought they'd see the day the flag in Mississippi would come down. But this is not a magical moment, because it doesn't erase the fact that there is still work to be done. Governor Musgrove, let's start with you. This major hurdle has been cleared, but what else needs to be done? Erin, to things that I've heard this morning are exciting. One that Jordan wants to come back to Mississippi once he graduates from Harvard. I can't help but believe that that's a positive sign. Mississippi has lost population for the last three or four years, mainly young people, and I believe that's a positive sign, and I can't help but believe that some of it has to do with the old flag that we had as far as the losing of people. Secondly, the doctor, Rory came back and he felt like he had something to contribute to Mississippi. You could not watch that video, George Fluid and feel like everything was OK. You knew something was wrong with the criminal justice system. So what we must see is we must see more than symbols changed. We must see actual policies change, everyone having and being treated properly and correctly and fairly when we start changing our policies like the criminal justice system, like making sure that we fund education for everyone and that we don't defund education as we have done over the last decade, then we'll start seeing some positive gains. And I believe those are the things that need to be done over the next years to give the message and signal to the rest of the country and even the world that Mississippi is a place that you could live in, grow up and raise a family and doctor, or you heard the governor mentioned that all of this seems have started with George floored here from in a few weeks ago. Did you ever think that what happened with George Floyd in Minneapolis would make its way here to Mississippi and lead to change here? Well, you know, after saying, makes it brown and the other young white and black protesters doing the aftermath, George Floyd's dead. I was encouraged. Um, I hadn't seen that type of, you know, murder of blacks and whites in a public space, as relates to progress, the state in my lifetime. And so that gave me hope. But But they're not. I would be remiss if I didn't mention, you know, our ancestors who really made this possible and who fought for the removal of structural barriers such as, you know, Dr Aaron Surly Dr Ali Shirley Damaged Lewis or E. James MEREDITH. You know, Mega Evers Family Hebert list goes on, and to see Black legislate towards locked out of the ceremony on yesterday was very troubling. Blacks have been locked out of the political process for so many years and then moving forward, you need to see the structural barriers such as inequality of funding for historically black universities as well as public schools. You know, efforts to take the airport from Jackson, which would have great economic implications. And so, in order for this to be substantive and not simply symbolic those who cross the aisle to vote on this particular issue, I'll be watching to see whether or not they cross the aisle to, you know, dress progressive change. And we do know that it was a bipartisan effort and being a political science professor. What do you think about that? The fact that it took Democrats and Republicans get coming across the line to come together to make this law to vote on this and make this happen. Well, I guess you know the future will tell whether or not these letters they talked with genuine about their efforts. We know that Ah, a lot of these efforts were a function of pressures from outside. You had corporations get the SEC. You have athletes who applied the pressure for the Legislature Toe Act. And so now we'll see whether or not, you know, legislate towards our genuine in their efforts to see um, Mississippi progress in Jordan. How about you? We know that you and other millennials have truly stepped up during this reignited movement And, of course, not only are you a scholar, you're also an athlete. You play football at Jackson State as well. So saying someone like Island Hill, step out and make a strong statement that he did about not playing in Mississippi anymore. What do you think about young people and their role and what it meant to this new movement? Well, I will first like the salute Colin Hill on the courage to do something like that. But my pain is long overdue for athletes to do this. And the reason why I say that is because we create so much revenue for these universities and help the economy. For somebody. Cities are voice really matters, and that's what Colin Hill really showed. It's long overdue for us to show how much are voice matters and what we can do for the community in the world. And I'm glad Colin Hill set the tone for that, and I can't wait for more athletes or set set their voice out and set. The tone is a little, and I know you're going off to college here in a few weeks. But what about those who are staying here? Those who are in your class who are staying here and going to school here either locally or somewhere else in Mississippi. What would you like to see them do to continue this fight? Honestly, uh, prioritize your time. Really? Prioritize your time. Ah, really? Set the goal for what you really want to do for this state and also this country as well. We have an agenda, and we have to complete. That is social justice for this state in the country. We need to unite and focus on the issues that we have ahead of us. That that's what we need to do. All right. Sounds good. Thank you so much of Jordan and keep it right here. Everyone, much more. Mississippi matters coming up in just a moment. Welcome back to Mississippi matters. As we wrap up our conversation about the historic black vote, we want to get some final thoughts from our guest. Dr. Rory, we like to start with you. You mentioned that you were at the University of Mississippi and that you left Mrs it before time. After that historic vote back in 2001 when voters decided to keep the flag, give us some thoughts about actually what it was like being in University of Mississippi and your time leaving in your time coming back. Well, in 2001 I can remember it like yesterday, April 17th 2001 when we had the flag referendum. Um, again, I was extremely hurt by it. I just moved back to Mississippi after being in graduate school forever. And so I remember one day jogging around the campus and I noticed a Confederate graveyard in the back of the campus. And while I was in graduate school, I actually used to live right across from that Gravier and I've never seen it. I jogged on a little bit further. And then you, of course, see the Confederate monument, and then I just a little bit further, and I saw monument or, you know, assemble that reference. Nathan Bedford Forrest, founder of the clan. It's all that hit me at once, and I just began to crumble and decided that it was time for me. Leave what I love. For 20 years now, I've been doing research on you know, the Confederate battle flag and its impact on blacks. Recently, I've been working on the impact of the flag on what we call by carriers trauma and complex trauma. And the research yielded that. You know, when we could make blacks to, like E K G machines and, you know, skin conductors to see almost a sweat that blacks indeed responded in a negative way when they saw the flag. And so, you know, I'm glad to see that this research now we'll no longer be relevant on, and that's a good thing. And for your students here that you'll be teaching here in the fall and and in the future, what are some of the things that you will be telling them about this time? Their time in 2001? I'm sure you already tell them about. But what about now? This time here in 2020? What will you want your students to take away from this? Well, first of all, let's give me never forget from whence you come and remember that you know, we had ancestors who fought the entire life and didn't get a chance to see this come to fruition on. And so they have an obligation to move forward and, you know, engage themselves and social justice or you know, other activism that will lead to a better life for future generations. And if he had a message for Jordan and other students from the class of 2020 who are about to head off right now, what would you tell them? I'm come back and be that change that you want to see again. I left the state and always knew that I would come back, no matter how devastated I waas. It's an experience that I needed, I guess Toe have to give me the moment, um, to, you know, conduct as much work to see the change that I wanted to see, and so I would encourage them to, you know, stay visible it and recognize the structural barriers even though they have an opportunity to, you know, go off and get a better education there. So many in this state who do not have that opportunity. And Jordan, you've heard what Dr Ory said As you get ready to head off to Harvard, I'm sure you're prepared for many people asking you about being from Mississippi and what it's like living in Mississippi. And they're probably gonna talk about this flag once you get there as well? Yes. I'm excited that that's not the burden of people wanting to come here. And also, when we have conversation people, I asked me why do you want to stay? Or why would you want to come back? I'm glad that conversations over and we could talk about different issues and different problems and not specifically the issue that represents us as a whole. And some final thoughts for your fellow graduates this year. What would you like again for them to see? I would like to I would like them to see the moment, um that we have done as a country and specifically estate. Uh, we did this in a short timeframe the last three months. Imagine if we can do that for the next year, to how further along we will be as a state and country. So I would like to offer, keep the momentum alive, keep positivity and keep fighting, and governor must grow. What about you? Of course again. This all started with you back in 2001. And now here we are in 2020 with this historic vote. What are some of your final thoughts? One of the things, doctor or just beach, and I think is fear relevant to the day. If you are white like I am, and we have enjoyed the benefit of privilege all of our lives in some shape, form or fashion, we need to learn to listen more. We need to listen to what it means that people are saying where people are hurt, where people are sensitive about not being included in things. If you are a black legislator, if you're a person of color and you've worked hard for decades on changing the flag, it's important to be involved in the celebration of that. That's just a part of life that's imported. All of those areas need to be sensitive to the R leadership in Mississippi. The people who hold office, the people who are respected people in the community make sure all voices are heard and that black voices, voices of color, voices of everyone are included in steps as we move forward as a state, and we do know that it will take everyone to continue to move things forward. Thank you so much for being with us today. Governor Ronnie Musgrove, Doctor DeAndre Rory and Jordan Jefferson a region's ear. She glad grad heading to Harvard University. And thanks so much for watching Mississippi matters this week. Join us again next Sunday at 11 35 PM form or insightful conversation about the biggest. this'll is Mississippi matters in partnership with the United Way of the capital area. Hello and welcome to Mississippi. Matters everyone. I'm Erin Pickens. This week we're talking about the historic vote that changed Mississippi's controversial flag, removing the Confederate stars and bars that many found racist. Joining us this week. Our former governor, Ronnie Musgrove, recent Jackson State University graduate Jordan Jefferson, who is now heading to Harvard. And Dr DeAndre Aurea, professor of political science at Jackson State University. Thank you all for joining us before we get into our discussion. Let's remind everyone how we got to this point. On Saturday, June 27th the Mississippi House and Senate voted to suspend the rules to allow the flag removal bill to be submitted. The next day. On June 28th both sides voted on the bill to remove the flag. It passed the House 91 to 23 in the Senate, 37 to 14. That led to the governor signing the bill into law on Tuesday, June 30th. Now let's get reaction from our guest. Governor must grow. We want to start with you. The much talked about flag vote happened in 2001 during your term as governor, when voters chose to keep that flag that you ever think that you see the day that it would come down, I really did. If I thought I would live a normal life time, but I do, it was gonna take a while back then, it was the legislative leadership who was opposed to the flag are changing the flag, and the governor being Mia's serving at the time, felt like we needed to change it. I felt like it had so many bad things, too. It was divisive. It sent the wrong message. It told people in America that we couldn't treat people equal, fair correctly, and I thought it needed changed. But I am very glad that flag of 126 years has now finally come down and we can move forward. And I commend the legislative leadership, the lieutenant governor, the speaker of the House. And I'm glad that the governor came around. All right, we'll have more from you coming up in just a moment. But doctor or E, we go to you next. I'm sure you've had many lectures in your classes on the state flag. What did you think when you saw the legislators were voting tohave, it retired. Well, first of all, I was relieved. You know, I'd like to applaud Governor Most Grove in 2001 when he fought toe change the flag. I do believe that that was the impetus behind this defeat. I was working at the University of Mississippi at the time, and I was frustrated. I was devastated. After having so much hope for the state, I decided to leave the state in 2001 is result of that flag boat and moved toe of all places, Nebraska. And so, you know, I was excited. I also applaud Jordan Jefferson, who was a part of the momentous occasion. Hey, was down in the galley in, but not so when he called me, he called to celebrate, and I reminded him of the you know what? The struggle that it continues. And he reminded me that I should say with a moment, given the years that I've agonized over this defeat in 2001 and we're gonna talk to you more about that. Your time? University of Mississippi. And you're leaving the state. We'll talk more about that in just a moment. But speaking of Jordan Jefferson Okay, Jordan, you're the former student government Association president at J Issue, and you've been very vocal about the flag as a young man. How did she feel to sit in that gallery and watch that vote happened? It's such a surreal moment, because now I know that Mississippi will forever be positively changed for the better and good. I'm so excited because so many people will want to stay now and economic value be brought to the state. And I'm just really super excited about what's gonna be furthermore in this state and also this country as well. So I'm very excited as a student and can't wait to come back to Mississippi and help move for movements said before. And that's about to ask you, can we know you're going off the Harvard here for school? So do you plan to come back and help better things from Mississippi? Oh, yes. After I get this fancy degree, I'm gonna come back and help change Mississippi and be the change I want to see. That's awesome. I'm sure Mississippi will welcome you in that fancy degree right on back to help Continue with the change. All right, thanks, Jordan. Not to worry back to you. We want to go and talk about this historical relevance of this vote and this new law. How will this time in Mississippi history be documented? Well, you know, Mississippi has stained and relate to racial inequalities on I think that, you know, this symbolizes the move. You know, in terms of a divorce from that state flag, be engagement. You know, rain represents unity, and then the marriage a za relates to reconciliation on do you know, efforts to move forward. And so, you know, this is a great day, and we want to make sure that this is a great marriage in a long lasting marriage. Aziz, we move forward, Black, white, so on and so forth. But this is a great day, and I'll always treasure this this moment. And you mentioned a little bit earlier that you left the state in 2001. After that vote, what was it that prompted you to return to Mississippi? Well, you know, actually, when the governor Business University of Mississippi for a meeting during that time, I told a woman that you know this flag boats if the referendum ends in defeat. I was leaving the state and she said, Well, you know, I left the state once and you know you will be back. You're just you just be running away. And so I knew that, You know, I had a lot, a lot toe off of the state. And, you know, the only way that we could see changes if I was a part of that change. And, you know, this is something that forced me to move back. I had no choice. And I'm sure you're glad to be back here during this moment in time as well. Almost definitely. You know, my son is here. You know, I was gone doing a huge part of his growth and development on Do you know, I was lucky enough to come back and find my Brad, my bride. And, you know, just glad to be here. Part of, you know, seen change and being a part of of that change. Excellent. Thanks. Almost, doctor, or okay, Governor must grow back to you. We want to get your thoughts as well. We know that your part in history as far as the flag is concerned is already documented. But how do you think Mississippi will be remembered now when it comes to the flag in this historic vote? Well, clearly, the changing of the flag is a victory and a step forward. However, it's not a total victory. You hope that the changing of the flag will then result in some really substantive changes toe what we need to do. We can't just say we're open and equal to everyone unless we provide opportunity and good jobs for everyone. Make sure we fund education for everyone, provide health care. If we're going change systemic racism in our society, then we've got to provide opportunities for everyone. Black lives do matter in the sense of all the opportunities that we as a state should give to people. So I'm hoping that will say, better job opportunities favorite one policies that will make sure education is funded. Also, to make sure that health care is available to everyone, and that overall people are treated with fairness and respect that they deserve. And you mentioned to us in an earlier interview that, you know, we don't know how many millions of dollars Mississippi lost during the time that the flag must flying. And before this vote happened, I knew 19 years ago that we were losing businesses because off the flag and there were several other states that had vestiges of the Confederacy and their flag as well, they all removed theirs. Leave in Mississippi is the only one we will never know. How many business opportunities jobs are business locations We lost in these 19 years because of that flag. But now we can say it's behind us. It's gone and we open and welcome people and businesses to Mississippi. Thank you so much, Governor. Okay, Jordan, you know, 2020 was ah, year So far, six months into it has been a very interesting year. Your whole graduation was thrown sideways because of Corona virus and covert 19. So now that we're into 2020 and this vote has happened and you were there to be a part of that and to witness it, what are your thoughts on this? And how will be portrayed in history being the new history books when the next edition comes? And I'm excited to say, Tell my kids and grandkids I was there, so that's gonna be very positive, but, um, yes, 2020 gave us a rough start, but I'm glad where 2020 has taken this. Now, uh, from the flag being taken down, this is the issue that we've been seeing visually for a long time. And, uh, now we need to work on the issues that we don't really usually see. So that's needs to be the feature of 2020 and the rest of these years coming. And as a young man, what would you like to see your peers due to make those changes happen? Uh, keep the moment. Um, don't get excited off. Symbolic change, you know, really fight for what you really want to see and what needs to happen there. So many issues that we have as a state, especially as a country. Don't get excited by a little momento. Keep it. Keep it going. Keep the moment, um, alive. So I want us as young people to state the issues and hold our public officials accountable. And that is a great segue. Way to get ready for our next segment. So stay with us, everyone. When we return, we'll be talking about where we go from here now that history has been made. Okay, And welcome back to Mississippi matters. This week, we're discussing the history making vote that retires the state flag and paves the way for the designing of a new one this week. Our guest, our former governor, Ronnie Musgrove, recent J issue graduate Jordan Jefferson and Dr DeAndre or E. J. Issue political science professor. During this segment, we want to talk about what happens next. Many people are riding a high of emotions right now because they never thought they'd see the day the flag in Mississippi would come down. But this is not a magical moment, because it doesn't erase the fact that there is still work to be done. Governor Musgrove, let's start with you. This major hurdle has been cleared, but what else needs to be done? Erin, to things that I've heard this morning are exciting. One that Jordan wants to come back to Mississippi once he graduates from Harvard. I can't help but believe that that's a positive sign. Mississippi has lost population for the last three or four years, mainly young people, and I believe that's a positive sign, and I can't help but believe that some of it has to do with the old flag that we had as far as the losing of people. Secondly, the doctor, Rory came back and he felt like he had something to contribute to Mississippi. You could not watch that video, George Fluid and feel like everything was OK. You knew something was wrong with the criminal justice system. So what we must see is we must see more than symbols changed. We must see actual policies change, everyone having and being treated properly and correctly and fairly when we start changing our policies like the criminal justice system, like making sure that we fund education for everyone and that we don't defund education as we have done over the last decade, then we'll start seeing some positive gains. And I believe those are the things that need to be done over the next years to give the message and signal to the rest of the country and even the world that Mississippi is a place that you could live in, grow up and raise a family and doctor, or you heard the governor mentioned that all of this seems have started with George floored here from in a few weeks ago. Did you ever think that what happened with George Floyd in Minneapolis would make its way here to Mississippi and lead to change here? Well, you know, after saying, makes it brown and the other young white and black protesters doing the aftermath, George Floyd's dead. I was encouraged. Um, I hadn't seen that type of, you know, murder of blacks and whites in a public space, as relates to progress, the state in my lifetime. And so that gave me hope. But But they're not. I would be remiss if I didn't mention, you know, our ancestors who really made this possible and who fought for the removal of structural barriers such as, you know, Dr Aaron Surly Dr Ali Shirley Damaged Lewis or E. James MEREDITH. You know, Mega Evers Family Hebert list goes on, and to see Black legislate towards locked out of the ceremony on yesterday was very troubling. Blacks have been locked out of the political process for so many years and then moving forward, you need to see the structural barriers such as inequality of funding for historically black universities as well as public schools. You know, efforts to take the airport from Jackson, which would have great economic implications. And so, in order for this to be substantive and not simply symbolic those who cross the aisle to vote on this particular issue, I'll be watching to see whether or not they cross the aisle to, you know, dress progressive change. And we do know that it was a bipartisan effort and being a political science professor. What do you think about that? The fact that it took Democrats and Republicans get coming across the line to come together to make this law to vote on this and make this happen. Well, I guess you know the future will tell whether or not these letters they talked with genuine about their efforts. We know that Ah, a lot of these efforts were a function of pressures from outside. You had corporations get the SEC. You have athletes who applied the pressure for the Legislature Toe Act. And so now we'll see whether or not, you know, legislate towards our genuine in their efforts to see um, Mississippi progress in Jordan. How about you? We know that you and other millennials have truly stepped up during this reignited movement And, of course, not only are you a scholar, you're also an athlete. You play football at Jackson State as well. So saying someone like Island Hill, step out and make a strong statement that he did about not playing in Mississippi anymore. What do you think about young people and their role and what it meant to this new movement? Well, I will first like the salute Colin Hill on the courage to do something like that. But my pain is long overdue for athletes to do this. And the reason why I say that is because we create so much revenue for these universities and help the economy. For somebody. Cities are voice really matters, and that's what Colin Hill really showed. It's long overdue for us to show how much are voice matters and what we can do for the community in the world. And I'm glad Colin Hill set the tone for that, and I can't wait for more athletes or set set their voice out and set. The tone is a little, and I know you're going off to college here in a few weeks. But what about those who are staying here? Those who are in your class who are staying here and going to school here either locally or somewhere else in Mississippi. What would you like to see them do to continue this fight? Honestly, uh, prioritize your time. Really? Prioritize your time. Ah, really? Set the goal for what you really want to do for this state and also this country as well. We have an agenda, and we have to complete. That is social justice for this state in the country. We need to unite and focus on the issues that we have ahead of us. That that's what we need to do. All right. Sounds good. Thank you so much of Jordan and keep it right here. Everyone, much more. Mississippi matters coming up in just a moment. Welcome back to Mississippi matters. As we wrap up our conversation about the historic black vote, we want to get some final thoughts from our guest. Dr. Rory, we like to start with you. You mentioned that you were at the University of Mississippi and that you left Mrs it before time. After that historic vote back in 2001 when voters decided to keep the flag, give us some thoughts about actually what it was like being in University of Mississippi and your time leaving in your time coming back. Well, in 2001 I can remember it like yesterday, April 17th 2001 when we had the flag referendum. Um, again, I was extremely hurt by it. I just moved back to Mississippi after being in graduate school forever. And so I remember one day jogging around the campus and I noticed a Confederate graveyard in the back of the campus. And while I was in graduate school, I actually used to live right across from that Gravier and I've never seen it. I jogged on a little bit further. And then you, of course, see the Confederate monument, and then I just a little bit further, and I saw monument or, you know, assemble that reference. Nathan Bedford Forrest, founder of the clan. It's all that hit me at once, and I just began to crumble and decided that it was time for me. Leave what I love. For 20 years now, I've been doing research on you know, the Confederate battle flag and its impact on blacks. Recently, I've been working on the impact of the flag on what we call by carriers trauma and complex trauma. And the research yielded that. You know, when we could make blacks to, like E K G machines and, you know, skin conductors to see almost a sweat that blacks indeed responded in a negative way when they saw the flag. And so, you know, I'm glad to see that this research now we'll no longer be relevant on, and that's a good thing. And for your students here that you'll be teaching here in the fall and and in the future, what are some of the things that you will be telling them about this time? Their time in 2001? I'm sure you already tell them about. But what about now? This time here in 2020? What will you want your students to take away from this? Well, first of all, let's give me never forget from whence you come and remember that you know, we had ancestors who fought the entire life and didn't get a chance to see this come to fruition on. And so they have an obligation to move forward and, you know, engage themselves and social justice or you know, other activism that will lead to a better life for future generations. And if he had a message for Jordan and other students from the class of 2020 who are about to head off right now, what would you tell them? I'm come back and be that change that you want to see again. I left the state and always knew that I would come back, no matter how devastated I waas. It's an experience that I needed, I guess Toe have to give me the moment, um, to, you know, conduct as much work to see the change that I wanted to see, and so I would encourage them to, you know, stay visible it and recognize the structural barriers even though they have an opportunity to, you know, go off and get a better education there. So many in this state who do not have that opportunity. And Jordan, you've heard what Dr Ory said As you get ready to head off to Harvard, I'm sure you're prepared for many people asking you about being from Mississippi and what it's like living in Mississippi. And they're probably gonna talk about this flag once you get there as well? Yes. I'm excited that that's not the burden of people wanting to come here. And also, when we have conversation people, I asked me why do you want to stay? Or why would you want to come back? I'm glad that conversations over and we could talk about different issues and different problems and not specifically the issue that represents us as a whole. And some final thoughts for your fellow graduates this year. What would you like again for them to see? I would like to I would like them to see the moment, um that we have done as a country and specifically estate. Uh, we did this in a short timeframe the last three months. Imagine if we can do that for the next year, to how further along we will be as a state and country. So I would like to offer, keep the momentum alive, keep positivity and keep fighting, and governor must grow. What about you? Of course again. This all started with you back in 2001. And now here we are in 2020 with this historic vote. What are some of your final thoughts? One of the things, doctor or just beach, and I think is fear relevant to the day. If you are white like I am, and we have enjoyed the benefit of privilege all of our lives in some shape, form or fashion, we need to learn to listen more. We need to listen to what it means that people are saying where people are hurt, where people are sensitive about not being included in things. If you are a black legislator, if you're a person of color and you've worked hard for decades on changing the flag, it's important to be involved in the celebration of that. That's just a part of life that's imported. All of those areas need to be sensitive to the R leadership in Mississippi. The people who hold office, the people who are respected people in the community make sure all voices are heard and that black voices, voices of color, voices of everyone are included in steps as we move forward as a state, and we do know that it will take everyone to continue to move things forward. Thank you so much for being with us today. Governor Ronnie Musgrove, Doctor DeAndre Rory and Jordan Jefferson a region's ear. She glad grad heading to Harvard University. And thanks so much for watching Mississippi matters this week. Join us again next Sunday at 11 35 PM form or insightful conversation about the biggest.